whats a hybrid what is a intergrade?

[Dan S]

there is alot of confusion out there in the hobby. Seems that an intergrade is more acceptable to most. I for one do not think hybrid is a bad word but we all know to many it is.

I for one believe that intergrade should be left to snakes that cross breed in the wild. Those created by man are all in my opinion hybrids.

[Terry Allan Hall]

there is alot of confusion out there in the hobby. Seems that an intergrade is more acceptable to most. I for one do not think hybrid is a bad word but we all know to many it is.

I for one believe that intergrade should be left to snakes that cross breed in the wild. Those created by man are all in my opinion hybrids.

That's how I've always understood the definitions, too. 

[west]

Taxonomically, an intergrade is produced when two SUBSPECIES produce offspring, while a hybrid is produced whe two seperate SPECIES produce offspring. In this sense it has nothing to do with whether the "deed" happens in captivity or in the wild.

Eg. P. g. guttatus x L. g. californiae = Hybrid
     P. o. obsoleta x P. o. lidheimeri = Intergrade

But I think the whole obsoleta complex has been given full species status recently (under correction) so possibly the example I gave for an intergrade could be wrong. Anyway, you get the picture

[chuckhurd]

i am a fan of hybrids, by all means. in the question of hybrid verses intergrade, it has been my understanding that a intergrade is a breeding of sub-species, for example a northern x southern copperhead would be an intergrade. and a hybrid is a breeding of two different species, for example a copperhead and a cottonmouth breeding would be a hybrid.
 
I work with two hybrids, the copper x cotton and the cane x edb. both of which do occur in nature. i have 1.3 copper x cotton. my male was captive produced in 07 by a southern copperhead male and FL cottonmouth female. I also have his big sister that was produced in 05. She and her brother bred this year and produced live offspring, the first ever f2 hybrids. my other adult female copper x cotton hybrid was collected as a sub-adult in middle GA. My third was an accidental breeding that came from a collector in SC that housed large numbers of coppers and cottons in the same outdoor pin.
 
My cane x edb's were produced in 05 by Roark using an 11 year old cane male to a 4 year old virgin female edb. my close friend, david weathers, collected a female edb in south GA in 2004. she dropped a litter of cane x edb hybrids shortly after.
 
therefor, we know, beyond a shadow of doubt: 1. hybrids can be fertile and reproduce, 2. hybrids do occur in nature. those 2 questions, in my opinion, have been on the forefront of the hybrid debates.

[ssshane]

Those created by man are all in my opinion hybrids. 

So when I cross my Eastern Chain Kings with Fla Kings, they are labeled hybrids? I don't think so. Even when their ranges cross each other?

[Dan S]

Yes if you bred them i would call them a hybrid. See the problem here is the purists try to distinguish one as being ok and one as not. Then of course people who produce them use a stupid name difference to justify their actions.

We dont need to justify anything, one isnt any better than the other nor is one any worse.

As long as we keep following those flawed beliefs in our labeling we are only perpetuating the hatred for perfectly fine reptiles.

Your snakes did not intergrade on their own by crossing one another in the wild. They were Created/forced to breed in captivity making them hybrids.

If we look at the term hybrid being worse than intergrade then so will everyone else

[herpnoob]

im 87% sure that an intergrade is cross between different subspecies and a hybrid is a cross between different species.

[Rolandslf]

My take on this whole issue is as follows.

Hybrid - Crossing of 2 different species, regardless whether done in the wild or captivity.

Intergrade - Crossing of 2 sub-species, regardless whether done in the wild or captivity.

Now just to add confusion, we all know the difficulties of getting a King to cross with a Corn in captivity, a degree of skullduggery is involved. This poses a question, what are the chances of such a cross occurring naturally in the wild?

For the above reason I believe that Dans' theory of Hybrid and Intergrade does bear merit, we are after all in captivity making a forced crossing and it should be labelled as a Hybrid.

The big factor to watch out for though, is that we honestly label and advertise our product as being Hybrid. This is not only ethical but also prevents unwanted impurities occurring in a blood line.

[herpnoob]

im 87% sure that an intergrade is cross between different subspecies and a hybrid is a cross between different species.

Scratch the 87% part. That's what the difference between hybrid and intergrade IS
Its a fact. If 2 different species bred in the wild it would still be a hybrid. but if 2 subspecies of the same species crossed with the help of man it would still be an intergrade.